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- Joanie Gillispie, Ph.D. on Cyber Rules
Joanie Gillispie, Ph.D. on Cyber Rules
- By David Van Nuys
- Published 07/2/2008
- Internet addiction
- Unrated
David Van Nuys
David Van Nuys, PhD is Emeritus Professor of Psychology at Sonoma State University, and host of two podcast interview series on topics in Mental Health, Wellness and Psychotherapy at the sites: Wise Counsel and Shrink Rap Radio
From Wise Counsel Interview Transcript
Dr. David Van Nuys: Welcome to Wise Counsel, a podcast interview series sponsored by mentalhelp.net, covering topics of mental health, wellness and psychotherapy.
My name is Dr. David Van Nuys. I am a clinical psychologist and your host.
On today's show, we'll be talking with Joanie Gillispie, PhD who is co-author of the 2007 book Cyber.Rules: What You Really Need to Know About the Internet.
This book seems particularly relevant for our series and as much as it is described as the essential guide for clinicians, educators and parents. Dr. Gillispie received the Doctorate in clinical psychology from the Fielding Graduate University with an emphasis in health psychology. She works from systems and individual theories utilizing psychodynamic and cognitive behavioral perspectives.
She holds a professional post doctoral training certificate from the University of California, Berkley in neuropsychological assessment screening and a one year advanced training in strategic depth psychotherapy.
Her expertise is in the area of Internet media, understanding the psychological and social effects of cyber space and cyber culture. Her research, writing and presentations about the Internet include media literacy, cyber sexuality and professional issues online for mental health consumers, practitioners and organizations.
She's also taught at U.C. Berkley, Dominican College and University of Phoenix. Now here's the interview.
David: Dr. Joanie Gillispie, welcome to the Wise Counsel podcast.
Joanie Gillispie, PhD: Thank you.
David: Oh I am really glad to have you here. I have been very much enjoying your book that you co-authored with Jayne Gackenbach 'Cyber Rules - what you really need to know about the Internet, the essential guide for clinicians, educators and parents' and so I am really looking forward to exploring that book with you for our listeners.
Let me start off though by asking what experiences in your own life and background led you to write this book?
Joanie: Well, I have been working with youth and families since I was 21, so that's over 35 years ago and I have been deeply concerned at the disconnect of adults with children, that's been educated in the schools, There were too many children who want getting the education they needed and in addition, over the years, they tend to be coming to school with more and more problems that prevented them from learning and I accept responsibility for all the kids, all kids.
We need to raise them better because they're going to inherit a world that's going to take a lot of analytical ability and it's going to require a lot of deep and meaningful human connections.
So I wrote the book out of frustration that we did not appear to be helping children enough so they could take over when we pass on and then I discovered the Internet as an opportunity to make more meaningful connections with our young people.
David: OK, and how did you happen to team up with your co-author Jayne Gackenbach who is a professor up in Canada?
Joanie: Well, Jayne's expertise is in the area of dreaming and I wrote my book with her but I wrote it by myself, one night in a dream.
And I knew that we could use the Internet to change some of the things that we need to change on ground, but it wasn't going to happen unless we really understood how Internet media has shaped, our communications and also our relationships with each other.
And she wrote a great book called 'The psychology of the Internet', just came out at its second edition, I wrote a chapter for her second edition book and I was interviewing her on the phone and she said, "Well, you don't know very much about this subject, do you", and I said, "No, but I am learning a lot", and I said, "You wrote one of the best books", and she said, "Well, why are you writing a book?", and I said, "Well, because I wrote this book in my dreams", and that worked for her. She liked that.
David: Interesting, yeah I like that too, that's very interesting.
Joanie: I actually wrote the whole table of contents and everything. It took three years to get it out on paper but I did write it in a dream.
David: Well boy, maybe I'll explore that some more with you offline since I am very interested in dreams but I want to...
Joanie: Our unconscious mind is very powerful and the Internet is really the global collective unconscious. It is very similar to the dream state actually, neurologically in our brain when we're on the computer and also how it operates with a lot of neural connections.
David: Well that's a fascinating idea. Let me say at the outset that I think this book that you co-authored is a very thoughtful and balanced resource for parents, educators and clinicians, just as you intended and that you and Jayne do an excellent job of integrating recent research with illustrative vignettes and you managed to avoid dogmatic advice.
Joanie: Well, thank you, that was our aim.
David: Well done, yeah and I must admit, I am a denizen of cyber space myself, maybe verging on addiction. So there was an article in the paper just this morning. I don't know if you saw it but the American Medical Association is considering this very day declaring Internet addiction or maybe it was... I am trying to remember it was either video game addiction or Internet, I think it was video game addiction as an official diagnostic category.
So maybe that's a place for us to jump in. Let's talk about addiction and whether or not the Internet is addictive or video game is addictive etc.
Joanie: Well that's a great place to start because Kimberly Young first coined the term in 1997 "Internet addiction" and it's very catchy. But if you use our offline criteria for examining whether it's an addiction. Our behavior is actually a compulsion not an addiction. An addiction requires a substance.
So I think a more accurate explanation could be compulsive Internet use in the area where it becomes problematic in the person's life or in their occupational life or social life.
So I'd like to sort of refrain the word 'addiction' because models of addiction treatment which is abstinent space, 12 steps or a harm reduction, don't really work very well with the Internet.
And that's because our Internet is now embedded in so many different modalities that you can play video games on your cell phone, you can download porn on your iPod, so all of our media, digital media is now interacting with each other and coming into our lives in light speed, wiki speed, wiki is a Hawaiian word for speed and very embedded into our everyday lives.
So it's very hard to tease out Internet addiction or gaming addiction because it involves multi multi use of various digital media.
David: Yes, well that's an interesting distinction to use the word 'compulsion' rather than 'addiction', that's intriguing and I am going to need to think about that. It does makes sense on the face of it. They do give some examples in this newspaper article and I think you do in your book as well, of instances where either the Internet or video games can be indeed very disruptive and even young people can experience something that seems very much like withdrawal if they're suddenly removed and then they, that's all they think about, that's all they want to do.
In the newspaper article they cite that a certain percentage like it was three or four percent of young men who go to college and they're discovered that they have now ready access with high speed Internet connectivity and they never go to class, they just stay and play these online interactive multiplayer games all the time without going to class.
Joanie: Well that's right, there's a game called 'Second Life' and I read one great article that said people who play 'Second Life' should get a life, it's that they don't have a first life.
David: Yeah, 'Second Life', yeah, it's not even a game really but it's a virtual reality space where you can have an avatar that represents yourself, a kind of a visual cartoon version of yourself and you interact with virtual cartoon versions of other people and it's mirroring this reality so closely, people are actually making fortunes. One woman has made hundreds of thousands of dollars selling virtual real estate. Other people are selling virtual clothes and...
Joanie: [laughing]
David: Other people are selling virtual clothes. And I-
Joanie: I'm in the wrong business. [laughing]
David: Yeah, Really.
Joanie: [chuckling]
David: There is at least one therapist that I have encountered there, who has hung up his shingle in 'Second Life'.
Joanie: [acknowledges]
David: But you give a-
Joanie: Wow. That gets into all sorts of interesting issues. Let me remind you that the AMA is not the only organization on the planet that looks at Internet addiction. China for example, does have treatment centers, residential treatment centers, for people who have Internet addiction.
And they do call it Internet addiction. I am not sure if that is an accurate translation from Cantonese or Mandarin. But they perceive that there is a very serious problem with their young men, that are preferring to have lives that are virtual, than real.
We always live a lot in our fantasy lives. And when that becomes more important than our day to day, face to face life, then we do have a problem. And in my book I have a method to have people assess whether they have a problem or not.
I believe it is very important that as a psychologist, that we use assessment, criteria and measures, to see whether someone's behavior meets a certain criteria for a diagnosable disorder.
I think you can do the same thing with Internet behaviors, gaming, and viewing porn, or just emailing, or blogging, or surfing. And I think the criteria uploads very well. Our offline criteria uploads very well to online behaviors.
See Wise Counsel Interview for audio podcast and rest of transcript.
Dr. David Van Nuys: Welcome to Wise Counsel, a podcast interview series sponsored by mentalhelp.net, covering topics of mental health, wellness and psychotherapy.
My name is Dr. David Van Nuys. I am a clinical psychologist and your host.
On today's show, we'll be talking with Joanie Gillispie, PhD who is co-author of the 2007 book Cyber.Rules: What You Really Need to Know About the Internet.
This book seems particularly relevant for our series and as much as it is described as the essential guide for clinicians, educators and parents. Dr. Gillispie received the Doctorate in clinical psychology from the Fielding Graduate University with an emphasis in health psychology. She works from systems and individual theories utilizing psychodynamic and cognitive behavioral perspectives.
She holds a professional post doctoral training certificate from the University of California, Berkley in neuropsychological assessment screening and a one year advanced training in strategic depth psychotherapy.
Her expertise is in the area of Internet media, understanding the psychological and social effects of cyber space and cyber culture. Her research, writing and presentations about the Internet include media literacy, cyber sexuality and professional issues online for mental health consumers, practitioners and organizations.
She's also taught at U.C. Berkley, Dominican College and University of Phoenix. Now here's the interview.
David: Dr. Joanie Gillispie, welcome to the Wise Counsel podcast.
Joanie Gillispie, PhD: Thank you.
David: Oh I am really glad to have you here. I have been very much enjoying your book that you co-authored with Jayne Gackenbach 'Cyber Rules - what you really need to know about the Internet, the essential guide for clinicians, educators and parents' and so I am really looking forward to exploring that book with you for our listeners.
Let me start off though by asking what experiences in your own life and background led you to write this book?
Joanie: Well, I have been working with youth and families since I was 21, so that's over 35 years ago and I have been deeply concerned at the disconnect of adults with children, that's been educated in the schools, There were too many children who want getting the education they needed and in addition, over the years, they tend to be coming to school with more and more problems that prevented them from learning and I accept responsibility for all the kids, all kids.
We need to raise them better because they're going to inherit a world that's going to take a lot of analytical ability and it's going to require a lot of deep and meaningful human connections.
So I wrote the book out of frustration that we did not appear to be helping children enough so they could take over when we pass on and then I discovered the Internet as an opportunity to make more meaningful connections with our young people.
David: OK, and how did you happen to team up with your co-author Jayne Gackenbach who is a professor up in Canada? Joanie: Well, Jayne's expertise is in the area of dreaming and I wrote my book with her but I wrote it by myself, one night in a dream.
And I knew that we could use the Internet to change some of the things that we need to change on ground, but it wasn't going to happen unless we really understood how Internet media has shaped, our communications and also our relationships with each other.
And she wrote a great book called 'The psychology of the Internet', just came out at its second edition, I wrote a chapter for her second edition book and I was interviewing her on the phone and she said, "Well, you don't know very much about this subject, do you", and I said, "No, but I am learning a lot", and I said, "You wrote one of the best books", and she said, "Well, why are you writing a book?", and I said, "Well, because I wrote this book in my dreams", and that worked for her. She liked that.
David: Interesting, yeah I like that too, that's very interesting.
Joanie: I actually wrote the whole table of contents and everything. It took three years to get it out on paper but I did write it in a dream.
David: Well boy, maybe I'll explore that some more with you offline since I am very interested in dreams but I want to...
Joanie: Our unconscious mind is very powerful and the Internet is really the global collective unconscious. It is very similar to the dream state actually, neurologically in our brain when we're on the computer and also how it operates with a lot of neural connections.
David: Well that's a fascinating idea. Let me say at the outset that I think this book that you co-authored is a very thoughtful and balanced resource for parents, educators and clinicians, just as you intended and that you and Jayne do an excellent job of integrating recent research with illustrative vignettes and you managed to avoid dogmatic advice.
Joanie: Well, thank you, that was our aim.
David: Well done, yeah and I must admit, I am a denizen of cyber space myself, maybe verging on addiction. So there was an article in the paper just this morning. I don't know if you saw it but the American Medical Association is considering this very day declaring Internet addiction or maybe it was... I am trying to remember it was either video game addiction or Internet, I think it was video game addiction as an official diagnostic category.
So maybe that's a place for us to jump in. Let's talk about addiction and whether or not the Internet is addictive or video game is addictive etc.
Joanie: Well that's a great place to start because Kimberly Young first coined the term in 1997 "Internet addiction" and it's very catchy. But if you use our offline criteria for examining whether it's an addiction. Our behavior is actually a compulsion not an addiction. An addiction requires a substance.
So I think a more accurate explanation could be compulsive Internet use in the area where it becomes problematic in the person's life or in their occupational life or social life.
So I'd like to sort of refrain the word 'addiction' because models of addiction treatment which is abstinent space, 12 steps or a harm reduction, don't really work very well with the Internet.
And that's because our Internet is now embedded in so many different modalities that you can play video games on your cell phone, you can download porn on your iPod, so all of our media, digital media is now interacting with each other and coming into our lives in light speed, wiki speed, wiki is a Hawaiian word for speed and very embedded into our everyday lives.
So it's very hard to tease out Internet addiction or gaming addiction because it involves multi multi use of various digital media.
David: Yes, well that's an interesting distinction to use the word 'compulsion' rather than 'addiction', that's intriguing and I am going to need to think about that. It does makes sense on the face of it. They do give some examples in this newspaper article and I think you do in your book as well, of instances where either the Internet or video games can be indeed very disruptive and even young people can experience something that seems very much like withdrawal if they're suddenly removed and then they, that's all they think about, that's all they want to do.
In the newspaper article they cite that a certain percentage like it was three or four percent of young men who go to college and they're discovered that they have now ready access with high speed Internet connectivity and they never go to class, they just stay and play these online interactive multiplayer games all the time without going to class.
Joanie: Well that's right, there's a game called 'Second Life' and I read one great article that said people who play 'Second Life' should get a life, it's that they don't have a first life.
David: Yeah, 'Second Life', yeah, it's not even a game really but it's a virtual reality space where you can have an avatar that represents yourself, a kind of a visual cartoon version of yourself and you interact with virtual cartoon versions of other people and it's mirroring this reality so closely, people are actually making fortunes. One woman has made hundreds of thousands of dollars selling virtual real estate. Other people are selling virtual clothes and...
Joanie: [laughing]
David: Other people are selling virtual clothes. And I-
Joanie: I'm in the wrong business. [laughing]
David: Yeah, Really.
Joanie: [chuckling]
David: There is at least one therapist that I have encountered there, who has hung up his shingle in 'Second Life'.
Joanie: [acknowledges]
David: But you give a-
Joanie: Wow. That gets into all sorts of interesting issues. Let me remind you that the AMA is not the only organization on the planet that looks at Internet addiction. China for example, does have treatment centers, residential treatment centers, for people who have Internet addiction.
And they do call it Internet addiction. I am not sure if that is an accurate translation from Cantonese or Mandarin. But they perceive that there is a very serious problem with their young men, that are preferring to have lives that are virtual, than real.
We always live a lot in our fantasy lives. And when that becomes more important than our day to day, face to face life, then we do have a problem. And in my book I have a method to have people assess whether they have a problem or not.
I believe it is very important that as a psychologist, that we use assessment, criteria and measures, to see whether someone's behavior meets a certain criteria for a diagnosable disorder.
I think you can do the same thing with Internet behaviors, gaming, and viewing porn, or just emailing, or blogging, or surfing. And I think the criteria uploads very well. Our offline criteria uploads very well to online behaviors.
See Wise Counsel Interview for audio podcast and rest of transcript.
